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| Point based systems for immigrants | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Oct 17 2014, 12:30 AM (1,225 Views) | |
| + Pelador | Oct 17 2014, 12:30 AM Post #1 |
Crazy Awesome Legend
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How effective are points based systems for immigrants? For example like in America or Australia where doctors might get higher priority citizenship over plumbers or artists. That sort of thing. I think the system is flawed. I think it's flawed because you can't quantify how important one person is to society just by their occupation. I have no university degree and I am autistic. So I probably wouldn't be allowed to emigrate to Australia. But I might actually be useful to the country in some way that you can't read on my file. With this system we would be losing artists, musicians, authors, comedians and anyone who isn't afraid to work a skill less job which none of the natives want to do. Not only this, but we can't look into the future and see how their descendants might contribute. Perhaps the descendant of a Romanian immigrant farm worker grows up to help cure a horrible disease? Or creates some wonderful engineering work that changes history? Points based systems exclude potentially brilliant people and that is why they're bad. |
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Oct 17 2014, 02:18 AM Post #2 |
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By that logic, we should kick out all of the lazy, waste of space Americans and let those hardworking Mexican immigrants into our country. That's what I think of it. |
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| Pylons | Oct 17 2014, 02:20 AM Post #3 |
 
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Didn't read your post Pelador. Guess that means I'm outta the u.s. now. America's a melting pot. Read it: a musician should never take precedent over a doctor. Somebody faints in a train, are they gonna ask is there a musician in the house? No they'll say is there a doctor in the house(train). Your example of the immigrant workers son curing a disease would only be possible if that immigrant workers son was surprise surprise A DOCTOR. You're saying the system is flawed but your examples exemplify why it works. We don't need artists, we need people who have practical skills. Edited by Pylons, Oct 17 2014, 02:26 AM.
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Oct 17 2014, 02:25 AM Post #4 |
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Well yeah, but what if I'm having an anxiety attack on the train and the only way to calm me down is for someone to play Stairway to Heaven on the guitar? |
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| Pylons | Oct 17 2014, 02:27 AM Post #5 |
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Thats a band aid though. The doctor can prescribe you meds and perhaps if it's a psychologist diagnose the underlying reasons for the panic attack. Edited by Pylons, Oct 17 2014, 02:29 AM.
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| + Pelador | Oct 17 2014, 02:31 AM Post #6 |
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Crazy Awesome Legend
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No but if somebody's feeling depressed then a song which they really like might make them feel just a little bit more positive so that they don't swallow a bunch of pain killers that night. Or perhaps someone's music might influence a person enough to do something amazing with their life? See it's not black and white. Being a surgeon doesn't make you more important to the world than an artist. Like how useful would a doctor be working sewer maintenance? Our countries take all sorts of people to keep them working and having an elitist point system can potentially be counter productive. |
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| Pylons | Oct 17 2014, 02:34 AM Post #7 |
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I'd place the person working sewer maitenance as more useful than the artist. Plumbing, clean water, these things are important. If a person is that emotionally unstable they can't handle life without a song than theyd be set off at some point. Cold hard truth. Amazing under those terms is subjective. A doctor will always have a place in society. Curing a tangible illness or saving a life means more than an emotional breakdown, which is again handled professionally by doctors. If you can't handle the starving artists life than don't sign up for it. You can't expect the same benefits as someone who went through 8 years at medical school while you tuned your guitar, drew a painting on inspiration. That's laughable. Edited by Pylons, Oct 17 2014, 02:37 AM.
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Oct 17 2014, 02:59 AM Post #8 |
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So writers aren't important even though they're essential to our society? |
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| + Pelador | Oct 17 2014, 02:59 AM Post #9 |
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Crazy Awesome Legend
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Rating one person over another because of their occupation is not right. We need more doctors than we can shake a stick at of course. I'm not denying that. But music and art can be as healing as a doctor in the right circumstances. That's why there's art and music therapies. You don't just treat illness with a surgical knife. Now here's another thing I just thought of. Say my dad was a surgeon. Personally, that would mean that I would not wish to follow in his footsteps. I'd want to do something completely different for the sake of my own identity rather then emulating an existing person. I'm sure I'm not the only one who feels this way. That means that a generation of children born from doctors aren't going to be entering the medical field. A void is created because one occupation was preferred over another. We'd have terrible staff shortages probably worse than what the UK has now. No it's better to keep things balanced and you can't do that with a point system which gives priority to academics. |
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| Pylons | Oct 17 2014, 03:17 AM Post #10 |
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Thats why doctors are paid well Pelador, not everything in life is easy. Never did i say writers arent important. Writers are important, but a writer doesn't mean creative writing. I'd place scientific journals as important. Writing ones thoughts in a journal just for the sake of contemplating is a waste, it serves no one but just procrastinating. If we lived with this sort of logic by rewarding a field as subjective as art the same as we do doctors there'd be alot of malpractice and alot of unemployed masquerading as artists. The field is so subjective that someone could do no work for months and call it part of the creative process. It's honestly an excuse. Go to medical school, see how tough it is, realize the hardships of witnessing death and an actual life being in your hands and than realize why a doctor is placed above an artist. You want to be an artist, do next to nothing, have someone else take 8 years in medical school and make the same amount is honestly an excuse for laziness with nothing more than blaming it on society instead of picking up your own slack. You couldn't be a doctor cuz you wouldn't be able to handle the pressure. Place this thread on any medical forum than place it in any music forum, 80% of people will side with my rational argument. Don't make excuses, either get a job and make a salary or live the life of an artist. Don't expect the world to change for you, you'll be surely disappointed. For the record, your comment about people that don't want to follow in their parents footsteps, my father's an accountant I'm studying to be an accountant. I gladly follow in his footsteps and want to. A real artist has passion, they don't define their life by money. If you love your craft than do it for the art. You don't do it for the art, you do it to be lazy. Hence this thread. Plenty of artists, pianists, right tons of stuff and their work isn't discovered or loved until long after they are gone, that doesn't change them or their pursuit of it. Why should it you? Cause your logic is flawed. Your reward should be in your passion, a regular job is done for others, to pay bills, to help society, not for your subjective view of enlightenment. You do what you want but you need to get off the femce, either be an artist and accept it's not a stable job or get a practical job that benefits society in a tangible way that isn't fleeting. Me talking with you is pointless because you have scapegoats to keep your laziness in check. If everyone was an artist life would halt, society and civil order would be gone, there'd be no society and you'd have no platform to share your art. If everyone wasn't an artist life would go on because all real needs would be met. Edited by Pylons, Oct 17 2014, 03:39 AM.
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Oct 17 2014, 05:03 AM Post #11 |
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I don't want to be perceived as rude or harsh with this post, but I'm going to go on a bit of a rant. You've been warned. o.O
So you're claiming that any sort of writing aside from scientific writing is worthless? What about history? Literature? Did the likes of Shakespeare and Chaucer not contribute to our society in a literary fashion? Did people like Wollstonecraft, John Stuart Mill, Susan B. Anthony, and Elizabeth Cady Stanton not contribute greatly with their writing in earning rights for women? What about Martin Luther King Jr.? His speeches still motivate us today. I can list hundreds of writers and speakers who have shaped our society. Without writers and artists, the world would be nothing like it is today. We would probably still be living in the dark ages.
Woah woah woah... So you're saying that creative writing is worthless? Expressing human thoughts is worthless? Writers have been inspiring people and causing progressive movements for centuries. Without creative writing, we would have no movies, no TV, no books, no politics... We would have literally nothing. Stories inspire people. They motivate people. Doctors don't do that, do they? They may keep people alive, but they don't keep society as a whole alive. And without writing, there would be no science. There would be no communication or sharing of ideas.
*epic facepalm* Artists do next to nothing, huh? Artists work their asses off in a world that works against them. Writers get paid next to nothing pouring hours into projects that "normal people" could never even get a page into. I take particular offense to this since I'm going to school right now for English literature. It's definitely not easy, but it makes me happy. Writing makes me happy. I love expressing myself through words and learning about our history through its literature. Medical school is hard, sure, but it's mostly a lot of memorization. Writing takes actual talent and a lot of practice and dedication. I would argue that it's more difficult. It's way more difficult to become a successful published author than it is to get into medical school. I'm sure there are probably statistics to back that one up. Out of everyone who attends my college, probably one or two will become successful published authors. A few dozen will get into medical school. There's some perspective for ya.
This is very depressing. People should do what they love to do and what makes them happy, not what makes them the most money. Doctors may make a lot of money, but it definitely would not be a rewarding job for me. I would get nothing out of it.
I don't get it. Why are you saying that artists and writers are lazy? Makes no sense.
Practical job that benefits society? Hmmmm.... Refer back to my earlier comments about all of the people that have made society what it is today because of their writing. Also, what are you doing right now? You're sharing your ideas. Via writing. An expression of thoughts...
BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA /end Side note: I'd love to hear what you have to say about my theories that homemakers should be paid by the government and illegal immigrants should be given access to citizenship and a college education given the proper circumstances. That'd make for one interesting discussion. Edited by Doggo Champion 2k17, Oct 17 2014, 05:04 AM.
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| peep | Oct 17 2014, 05:26 AM Post #12 |
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all i can say is the world needs all kinds of people |
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| Pylons | Oct 17 2014, 12:05 PM Post #13 |
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First quote about living in the dark ages - I doubt it. We'd still make progress as humanity. Like I said scientific journals are fine and historical literature to a degree yes, has some use and yes I'd say creative writing doesn't benefit society to the same degree as a doctor, not even close. All those things you're talking about are forms of entertainment, not necessities. And take a step back, you're saying doctors can't inspire? You've never seen a family go up to a doctor and thank them for saving someone's life? And yes there would be science because like I said scientific journals are fine, if there's an objective about bettering society, scientific writing is fine. Art is so vague and subjective it could mean a million different things, theres no criteria, no accountability, if you fail to make a great portrait you can argue it's a different perspective, if a doctor fails, someone might die. There's a different gravity to each. You choose that life as a writer, like I said, there are plenty of writers and artists who choose willingly to live a starving artists life. They're fine with it because they have passion for their work. A regular person that has kids, family, responsibilities, actually lives for people beyond themselves, is paid more because their work isn't some subjective form of self expression, it's tangible benefit to society. Anyone can write, anyone can work, some choose to live a life that'll benefit society and provide for their families by having a regular job. No, that's laughable. Writing is nowhere near as hard as medical school. There being less successful writers and more people getting into medical school says nothing about how hard being doctor is. That says there is a greater need for doctors and again you're being vague defining what is a successful writer. Why do you need money to define yourself if you love your job? Isn't you writing the reward in and of itself. A fair comparison would be how many graduate medical school btw. No its not depressing, it's real life. People actually do become doctors because they find benefit out of helping people and saving lives. Saving a life has more impact than literature, it's probably what inspires a good amount of literature. Again if you love writing you should have no problem that it doesn't pay ad much as being a doctor than. One is essential and one isnt, the one that isn't pays less . It makes perfect sense. Plenty of "artists" fall under the category I've labeled. Yes practical job. If you're a scientist writing in a scientific journal, trying to post new discoveries you have a place. If you're a writer of poetry than no I see no place other than one you're trying to force upon society. Life isn't all about what you want. It's about sacrifices and doing things for others, if it was all about you there'd be no volunteer work, there'd be no charities. People have things called responsibilities, there is no responsibility to anyone in writing. It's so subjective that someone could make one stroke on a canvas they can argue it's art, that if you played nothing sitting next to a piano people could label it music and have, you could present an empty piece of paper and argue it's significance. The writing that isn't for reform, isn't for scientific research, just done for entertainment, isn't a necessity to society, as much as you like it that doesn't change the fact that a piece of poetry can't save a life like a doctor can. Doctors are a necessity, hence their pay. You need to define what is necessary, the only thing in life that is necessary is food, drinks and to breath. If you can't breath you don't go to an artist or writer, you go to a doctor. A want isn't a need. This honestly sounds like narcissism. Side note: no I don't think they should be paid, plenty of people find ways to make it work as homemakers and it's doing what you're suppose to be doing, no reason to be paid for it. Illegal immigrants should be given access to a higher education. You're making alot of assumptions. You guys keep going on with this writing, I've stated my case, if you want to complain and blame society than your life will be stagnant and focused solely on you. Edited by Pylons, Oct 17 2014, 12:31 PM.
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| + Pelador | Oct 17 2014, 12:32 PM Post #14 |
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Crazy Awesome Legend
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Another point about the creative types. A successful artist or musician can end up paying far more tax than a doctor or engineer. So not only are points systems theoretically lowering the cultural output of a nation but they are also bringing the governments less tax revenue. For the UK we need a good tax stream to fund the nhs and the doctors and nurses which we so desperately need right now. We aren't going to get that by prioritising academics. |
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| Cal | Oct 17 2014, 12:35 PM Post #15 |
I may not deserve to live, but I will protect those in my reach with my reverse blade!
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I've got a crazy idea though that legal citizens should get free education first. Brain explosion. Also, illegal immigrants are illegal. Also, 'a lot' is two words. Edited by Cal, Oct 17 2014, 12:35 PM.
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